Recent Forum Developments Discussion

[Agent86]

I have some thoughts on the recent issues that have been addressed both privately and publicly, but we as a community have not been given an open forum in which to discuss these matters without fear of punishment. I would like to speak those thoughts openly for the entire board, and I don't believe I'm asking too much seeing as how we've had to listen to all of the staff address those issues publicly themselves.

I'm asking the Admin of this board, who's known me as a user here for 5+ years, who knows that I don't take sides lightly just to stir crap up, who knows I'll be candid and honest about what I think... to give me and others who have an opinion on the recent events the chance to speak about this websites issues in the open. Not one specific issue... ALL OF THEM. And I ask that I and my fellow posters be allowed to do so without threat of suspension, banning, off-key punishment, or being stuck on a "naughty" list for future reference for doing so.

And before this thread becomes deleted or brought into question... you don't know what I'm thinking and you don't know what I'm going to say. All I'm asking is that after we've had to see all this drama and issues unfold in front of us (to which we had no option of ignoring), we be given a fair opportunity to tel you what we think.

[elchupacabras970]

"Stir the crap," that is exactly what someone has decided to do. And the crap hit the fan with a lot of nasty allegations that are not true. My integrity as well as that of others has been brought into question by someone who has questionable integrity, raiding the resources of this board to benefit one's self. Other than one small "gaffe" I perhaps made because I was new to moderating, I have attempted to permit full discussion of pertinent issues. Any other interpretation is a clear juxtaposition of facts and an egregious fallacy fomented by a literal wolf in sheep's clothing.

[admin]

Why should I allow an open dialogue? All you (meaning everyone) plan on doing is dog piling on me, it's funny when I took over this forum I was praised for the changes I did, now all I get is crap.....why?

CA has pointed out in his letter that HE ran this thing himself for the last ... years, so since he said he has mostly ran it, why do I get blamed for all that is wrong??? HE has done the banning, HE has done the deleting and now he has been caught harvesting emails and violating several TOS codes and now all I see is people touting him as a hero......why?

I'd like to know what the F I ever did but provide a forum free to use and get crap in return....why?

CA has carefully and very craft fully turned the users against me with lies and deception and like the cattle people are they have bought it hook line and sinker.

CA has openly admitted he wished to "Takeover" my forum, when he could not steal it from me he started contacting the users to leave, how does this make him a good guy?

I love how in Utah if you are not mormon that people will do anything to kill your reputation, this is just another example of that.

CA lies, steals, cheats and violates my trust on all levels, and violate all reasonable moral codes and you all see him as a hero.

I trusted him to care for my board and HE screws me and you want to dog pile on ME......again why???

This has obviously been a long term plan of his, he started his board in May, again I don't understand why people are against me I am a vicim here, he provided users with private information about the running of things and he violated that, time and time again, but you all see him as a hero of freedom, Utah is an amazing place, you provide a service that is used and used and used, and get torn apart by the wolves.....

Thanks guys, I appreciate the latest slap in the face, so take your shots, no reprisals, have fun ripping on me, that's what you (as in all of you) want to do, so have at it....enjoy....I know you will, you guys always have in the past.

The fact is that the MAN upstairs knows the truth here and he knows what happened, if this board loses it's membership and declines so be it, I have the truth on my side and that is something that CA CAN'T say, I hope that people will see through the lies but I doubt it, so be it..............

Thanks and nothing but love for ya!

[Agent86]

Well before I start, I believe I need to say some stuff out loud and remind you very bluntly of a few things about me and my time here. I work in this business too. With just as much, if not more experience in broadcasting, and that goes for most of the users here as well. And to pretend otherwise is a spit in the face to the rest of us who have to work for pathetic paychecks to do what we love. I've also been a long-time member and have seen some pretty wicked stuff go down and be said. Admin, I've got no issue with you. We've had run-ins in the past, but it's all water under the bridge and I believe there's a mutual respect there. CA (since I know he's reading this) has known me just as long around here and shares the same mutual respect. Elch, I've had no personal run-ins with you and cannot recall having problems with your previous name. I've heard a lot of chatter about the way you run the place, but I've never seen it first hand, so all I have is the word of mouth in message and in person from roughly ten members. So I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

With that said... with all due respect... for three people who are so tied into the ways of broadcasting in this state with years of experience and knowledge under your combined belts... how could the three of you act so childishly stupid? I'm not here to pile on one of you, I'm not even here to raise hell with two of you, I'm going to talk about all three of you and what's become of this place.

Now, before you start in, what follows is my point-of-view. With no knowledge other than what I've seen and heard as a third party with no invested interest in any of you equally. So if you start quoting me and make bullet-points in a rebuttal, I'm going to skip past all of it because I won't care. It's my take on the situation, not a history lesson that needs to be noted to death by any of you!

This website has been run into the ground. And all three of you are to blame. The reason you get the blame... you're in charge. You can spout off about providing free this and protecting that, but in the end if the website sucks, it's not our fault. We don't run things. And you can't pass blame to one person because more than one person ran the place. The three (now two) of you did. It started when you stopped doing news in 2004, and it just went downhill from there. All we got were rumors and occasional transmitter postings, then people started leaving for periods of time, then you tried to redesign the place, then people stopped submitting real news, then you tired to sell it, then you started doing partnerships, and I could just read these off like it's a list of how people have tried to revive Lower Lights over the years. But I think you get my point.

Now we come to recent history. You hire a new mod... for a board that doesn't have more than 7 registered users on at any given time. The other one feels jealous and left out, and goes overboard in his attempts to assert himself as the dominant one. Meanwhile, the new one, who I understand was supposed to bring back some old website that's been defunked for a few years, hasn't come through on the website yet and is getting rejected by the users to the point where he has to assert authority. Now you got a fight between two people with power, with no referee I might add because you did take off admin, and a handful of dedicated people stuck in the middle of it all.

One goes away for no reason without even telling anyone why, and the other starts to play Risk with the users and the board. Now you're both back and all three of you are hot. None of us can comment on the situation, because the minute we take someone's side, the immediate assumption we've all come accustomed to is that we'll be punished for taking a side. So we have to sit quietly on the sidelines while Mom, Dad, and Step-Dad all fight it out... in public no less. That's the thing that annoys me, and I know a number of others the most. All of this, every single word of it, could have been done in private. Long discussions in PM to let cooler heads prevail. But no, none of you were willing to back down, and all three of you dragged it out in public for us to read and deal with.

And for what I ask you?

CA went off to start a new website that looks like garbage. The majority of the users don't trust Elch now. And our admin, the wise one who's supposed to run this place peacefully, is now acting like a crying-angry child with a black eye. And in the end it still doesn't solve the original problem... that this site is just a hollow shell of what it once used to be, and is in no way trying to reclaim it's spot as a source of news and information with a community of broadcasters to support it.

Usually this is the part where the person who just had the rant and busted a blood vessel doing it would offer a solution to fix all the problems. Because as we all know, if you only listened to the advice of that one raving lunatic, all your problems would be solved. Right? ... Wrong. ... No one here can offer you any advice. Aside from the fact that I'm convinced you wouldn't take any advice given to you, I think it would only give you a one-sheet plan that you'll follow for a week before it self destructs for one reason or another, and you're back to where you started before the person who ranted gave it to you to begin with.

You've scared most of the users to voice their opinions, you've allowed your own personal egos and tempers to undermine any respect and trust that most of us had in all three of you, and when push came to shove... all three of you cared more about how you would look and come out of the argument more than how the site and the users would. You can scroll your way down this entire speech and claim I'm full of crap on 99% of it, but you're sure as hell not going to deny me that one.

This website lost its core value to report and talk about what's going on in Utah broadcasting. And I believe you proved that the day you renamed the site by taking the word News out of the title of the forum. At this point, the only thing that separates this place from being a crappy Yahoo post board on any given topic you can find, is the lack of spam bots and cops looking for child predators. All three of you allowed this place to go straight to hell, and the fighting did nothing to fix it. If anything, you just hammered another deathknell into it.

And before you start going off on me... I don't care. I really don't. You can talk trash about me, disrespect mer, bring up old posts (as if they have any meaning anymore), and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about to your heart's content. I don't care, it doesn't hurt me when you give me grief in public. It just hurts you. And we all know if you punish me, suspend me, or ban me for anything I've said... you'll just prove I'm right to everyone here and loose even more respect (if they don't just pack up and leave). If you don't delete the post and prove that you'd rather value censorship and protecting what little integrity this place has left, over taking criticism about the job you've done as people in power and learning from it.

In the end guys, it's just a postboard. It's not like your life is on the line. But if you truly care about it, you'd just shut up and fix it. Or don't. What does it matter, right? By the looks of things... its not like you care anymore.

[admin]

Agent I have no problem with what you say and you know I respect you, but I do have a question, why did one mistake from the new moderator cause him to lose total respect from everyone? Maybe because of nasty comments from CA? Why? So he made a mistake WTF, everyone is entitled to a mistake, I've made many, I have never claimed to be perfect nor wise.

Now look I have the right to allow anyone I choose to moderate this board, it was never intended to be a affront to CA, MAN he did a great job, I had no problems with him, and I asked him to help the new moderator, I know what elchup did was wrong and I told him, but why can't people accept it was a mistake based on inexperience? CA NEVER tried, he left the board for a month (and registered his forum) and did no moderation during that time and he told me essentially I had to give him this forum, that was not going to happen, and what right did he have to demand that?

ALSO let it be known we found out he was harvesting emails and doing polls the moment I hired ELCHUP.....WTF?

Why did this make him so mad, he was still the chief moderator, talking about a power trip, there is plenty of room for all, I intended to ask for more moderators anyway....geez Am I not allowed to run my own board? according to CA I guess not

Now since you cared enough to make such a long post, why not join the moderator staff and help us bring this back to good? What say you? Or was it just words?

I DO care what happens here but I also have other obligations, help us make it better

Again no reprisals for comments here, but they must not violate TOS

[ROG]

Agent's right about a lot of things. But I don't think I've ever really understood what the purpose of this board really is. If the goal is to garner more members and basically get more content in general, then I think it can be saved. If all we're doing is posting FCC filings and ownership disputes, I don't think you're going to see this boar really grow.

My advice would be to relax the standards. Lift the moratorium on new members. Let people express themselves more freely, even if some people get their feelings hurt. Stop deleting posts so much! An internet bulletin board with so much censorship is kind of a paradox. I understand the reasons behind it but I think we can all see the effect is counter-productive.

In general, I think if everyone took a deep breath and remembered this is a bulletin board for Utah Broadcasting, we'd be OK. Just relax.

[admin]

Roger thanks for the input, we have strict standards because of past issues with pornography posters and foul language, I was asked by members when I started this board to keep it to community standards....I have no issue with disagreements, however there is no need for flamewars, this off air board was always there for other discussions no one has taken the offer they want to bring religion to the on air boards, instead of bringing it here, also the religious talk almost always deteriorates into a flamewar, all i have ever asked is for people to keep the gloves on, afterall we are all adults here?

Thanks again Roger!

[Deleted]

For the sake of maintaining professionalism. I suggest we all move on from this and discontinue further discussion and mentioning. This issue has leaked to most parts of this board and it's getting exhausting seeing reference to it at every turn. I was bothered as well to see it mentioned in a site-wide announcement requesting moderators. Let's move this along and maybe fold all these posts into an archive somewhere. Stick a fork in it, cuz it's done!

[ROG]

See I think that's the problem with this board. It's this "maintaining professionalism" thing. Sure that's nice. Professionalism is important in a lot of places. But this is an internert bulletin board...the last bastian of free speech! In a world where most of us have to stifle our real feelings 8-12 hours a day, why not give people a real outlet for their thoughts and feelings? Isn't that more compelling content? All participation is voluntary so what's wrong with a few flamewars? Does that mean there will be NO serious discussion left on the board? I don't think so. I think you'll see people choosing to participate in whatever way they feel is appropriate. Yes pornogrpahy should be banned. Yes profanity should be edited. And in both of those areas, I would say this board is excellent! But beyond that, I really don't see a need for much censorship. If we are truly all adults, then why not treat us as such? If people are offended by someone's comment, let them take it up with the commenter (like an adult). If people want to bring religion into the discussion, why shouldn't they? Is it not a big part of our culture?

My point is this - give people a forum where they can truly express themselves and not only will that forum have great content, it will have a healthy membership. Don't fear conflict. Let it play out sometimes.

[admin]

Jul 2, 2008 9:54:44 GMT -5 @timmywa said:

For the sake of maintaining professionalism. I suggest we all move on from this and discontinue further discussion and mentioning. This issue has leaked to most parts of this board and it's getting exhausting seeing reference to it at every turn. I was bothered as well to see it mentioned in a site-wide announcement requesting moderators. Let's move this along and maybe fold all these posts into an archive somewhere. Stick a fork in it, cuz it's done!

Thanks Timmy for your comment, I didn't realize we were being paid here, this discussion was asked for by agent 86, I personally didn't want this, but remember I was the one who had my board 'jacked' by a trusted staff member, I have the right to be mad about that, and since you ran at full steam to join that forum, your post is just another stick in the eye, I assume you will post the same comment over there since it is also the talk there as well....

For the sake of maintaining professionalism fairness

Or is it just me talking about this you object to?

Again thanks for your comment, we don't always have to agree.

[Deleted]

My eagerness to join another board is just that. I like radio discussion! I have no partisan feelings or opinions. If you are familiar with the split of Radio-Info into radioinsight, I continued to visit and post at both sites. I was pretty much ignorant to any of this drama until I got the PM from CA. I remain side-less here. Bring on two boards for this incredible market! There's what, 27 country stations here? I'm sorry if my joining another board was hurtful or offensive to you. Please, by all means, be angry. My feeling was that it has really saturated this board and has grown old, IMO. ROG makes a good point and after thinking about it, yes, we should be able to break out of the total professionalism on boards like these. I will visit and post at both boards and will remain neutral. I was not involved in any of the drama and therefore have no attachments or investment. Thanks.

[admin]

Timmy this is not about neutrality, this is about right and wrong.............

Would you shop at a store you knew the stock was all stolen goods?

This was not a separation this was theft by deception! Doesn't that bother you, since you received the illegal PM?

That doesn't bother you??

This is a moral issue, not an issue of board competition, I have never had a problem with competition, that is the American way.

Radiogrind had the only board that was formed for discussion, not for the purpose of killing this board or to malign the staff here.

I challenge you to ask CA to tell you his real reason for violating the TOS to promote his board, I assure you it was not benevolent!

[elchupacabras970]

ROG, Agent86, Timmy and others:

Thank you for your input. Your opinions are valued and appreciated.

My hope is that I have not offended by anyone with my moderation. My intent was never to stifle any debate and have personally NEVER banned anyone.

I value spirited exchange and hope that we can continue with it. I also intend to personally answer any PM's with suggestions.

I perhaps made an error of judgement on one topic of religion at one point. I was inexperienced at moderation and could have handled it better. Religious debate is welcome on this board, but only in this, the off air category. The rest of the board is dedicated to radio.

Thanks again for your comments. I am really not such a closed-minded ogre! Criticism only helps me to become a better moderator.

[Deleted]

Admin,
Your arguments are justified and fine as far as you and the others that are directly concerned. Right and wrong doesn't mean much to someone like me who was totally un-involved. If the store was stocked with hot merch and I had no idea, what am I supposed to do? How am I implicated? I still don't really care about what happened between what looks like the 3 of you. Not my business. This is my point, it's not really anyone else's business. But all this public display is making it everyone's business and it's not necessary. Again, I'm all for having integrity and being rightfully angry when it's justified and it sounds like it is. But, seriously, leave the rest of us out of it. The only reason I piped up is that I was personally bothered by the tone and feel this board has had in the past days. I didn't do anything wrong. I hope this makes sense and I am getting my thoughts out clearly. I'm not in attack or defense mode. I love you all. Really.

[admin]

Timmy for one who has made his religion clear, your attitude concerning what I have said is shocking, when your church has isues they publicly excommunicate

Shame on you as this does concern everyone, and since you received the PM promoting the other board against the TOS that you are aware of, this shows ignorance on your part, YOU KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON HERE don't play dumb, as you are not I have seen your posts, you are intelligent, so act like it