Urban legend (see RDS thread)

[Michaeljwyo]

David wrote:

>>Part of the reason RDS may not have caught on in the US is because of a rumor that transmitting an RDS signal with the station's audio signal reduces the range of the station. This rumor may or may not be true, but as with most broadcasting "urban legends," rumors are hard to kill once they are started.<<


BINGO David! You hit THAT one right on the head. Same exact thing goes true for the AM Stereo rumor and how it cuts down on a station's coverage to broadcast in stereo. I say BALONEY! I'm 80 miles away from SLC. Now let's see.......can I pick up KALL better here now since they turned off the AM Stereo a few years back? NOPE! When 700 was KFAM and "beautiful music AM 700 Stereo" I used to listen. Can I pick them up better now since ClearChannel snatched them up and turned off the stereo (as they do with EVERY AM Stereo station they snatch up) NOPE! I converted KMER in Kemmerer, Wyoming to stereo last year. Can I pick them up worse now that they're stereo? NOPE! My pride and joy.....KEVA....now stereo since I converted last summer. Can I not pick them up as far when I travel out of town? NOPE!
Another one of those "urban legend" EXCUSES. That's all they are. Something to tell people instead of telling them that they are too CHEAP to buy RDS or that they feel that RDS is dead or there are NO RDS receivers out there. When in fact....your 2000 Impala is case in point. My wife's 2001 Impala is proof. They're still out there and still being manufactured. Same with AM Stereo. My sister-in-law has a brand new Ford Focus that has.....you guessed it...AM STEREO. I drove a 2001 Chrysler with stock AM STEREO. And yet you call a radio station and ask why they don't broadcast in stereo, and the reason you get is "Oh there just aren't any AM Stereo radios out there." or "it reduces our signal coverage area."
Ahem......okay.

I still think KWDZ 910 should turn the stereo back on. We know they have the equipment, unless they're using only a MONO STL to get the signal out to the transmitter site right now. Same with 860. And we can hope for 820 once it comes on the air. I didn't see any STL dishes mounted over at the site so I would have to guess that it is probably going to be some type of phone lines or digital circuit to get the signal out to Cedar Fort, and of course, it'll be twice as much to have two audio lines going out there and they probably won't be springing for the extra buckage. Then again, maybe they will in anticipation for digital radio so that way when a DECENT, and I repeat DECENT-GOOD SOUNDING digital radio system comes into being (which IBOC is NOT!!!) they'll be ready for stereo.
Anyone know anyone at KKDS? For a little while not too long ago (it was shortly before the time that Simmons purchased KXOL/KSOS from Brent Larson..he was the one that told me about it)...KKDS had turned their AM Stereo back on briefly. I heard it. It sounded decent. So we know they have the capability. Wish we could find out why they turned it off again shortly after. No, it did not make any difference in how good I could pick them up here 80 miles away in their fringe coverage area.

Whew! That was a long rant.
David's point and mine....URBAN LEGEND rumors are hard to break/stop once they start. And the RDS and AM STEREO coverage are two of them.

I know...I need to put the soapbox away for a while and crawl back into my cave.
bye bye

Michael n WYO

[Doh]

Preach on!!!!!!! Kill the mith of loss of signal due to AM stereo and RDS, but I have heard that using SCA cuts range...is this true??? or just another mith?

[David]

Michael n Wyo wrote:

I know...I need to put the soapbox away for a while and crawl back into my cave.
bye bye

On the contrary, Michael . . . I always enjoy reading your informative posts in this forum. It's great to get the point of view of someone who works in the broadcasting industry.

For what it's worth: I haven't noticed any difference in the range of KBER's signal since they turned off RDS. And on a good day (not too much noise at my location), I can hear KEVA and KMER in Ogden. Of course the signals are faint, but they are still audible.

[x]

i don't thnk SCA cuts range. There's some kind of weird stuff about subtracting modulation on the main signal when you use an SCA, but that's best left to the engineers.

[James W Anderson]

I never saw any problem when KISN was running the LDS Radio Network (now BYU Radio) for a few years recently.

The signal that was weak was the SCA. You had to buy a special AM/FM radio that had a card installed to receive that signal. Bonneville took the signal off the air on KISN's SCA sometime in 2001.

Bottom line, no difference was observable one way or another when an SCA is active on a frequency.

[Michaeljwyo]

Thanks David. I appreciate the compliments. For the record, KMER isn't in stereo anymore right now. I called the guy and talked to him the other day and for some reason when the engineer was up there one day, he switched the transmitter over to the crystal socket that has a crystal in it instead of the socket that has the AM Stereo exciter plugged in to it. I told him to flip the switch over and switch it back but he never did. Don't know if the engineer broke my cable or something but I'm gonna call him again. It was nice having 2 stations here in SW Wyoming to listen to in stereo. If you're in Ogden, have you tried listening to 106.1? KEVA's signal is rebroadcast on 106.1 as well and I know I've received it in different places in Ogden.

I've heard the rumor about SCA as well. And no I don't think it cuts down on modulation or coverage. Most stations use their SCA to get the metering information from the transmitter down to the studio. One of them anyways. Remember, FMs have 2 SCAs. I believe that on FM you can only modulate 100%. Period. FCC rules. I know that over-modulation can indeed bleed over onto the SCA channels. I remember a Moseley remote control that we had with an analog meter and when you overmodulated, you could actually watch the meter on the remote control unit bouncing.
I remember hearing that back in the good old days Muzak used to lease stations' SCA channels to broadcast muzak and then stores or businesses that were muzak subscribers had the special SCA receivers to pick up the muzak. That's long since become history since the avail of satellite and digital narrow--band satellite channels. I think most if not all of Muzak's stuff is satellite now and the subscribers have a small dish and receiver to pick it up. It's cleaner and better sounding. STL's also have SCAs on them. In our case up here, we use the transmitter's SCA to get the metering information from the transmitter down to the studio, and we use the STL's SCA to get the control functions from the studio up to the transmitter.

Neat stuff

Michael n WYO

[Doh]

Thanks for the info guys I once heard SCA did cut range, but that was by the same person that said AM stereo cut range and we know that's a bunch of crap!

Oh and Michael you can rant all you want, I personally like what you have to say!

[I Wish]

I thought you could increase your modulation by 5% per SCA... no?

kc7hub said:

Thanks for the info guys I once heard SCA did cut range, but that was by the same person that said AM stereo cut range and we know that's a bunch of crap!

Oh and Michael you can rant all you want, I personally like what you have to say!

[WA7UUJ]

On FM, it's the level of SCA injection that takes up space, but FCC allows stations with SCA's to use more bandwidth, so it shouldn't matter much to the audio level of the main channel. What does matter is that if SCA's are not engineered properly, they can put "birdies" and other strange noises in the main channel. That is where the "degradation" rumor comes from. Many stations don't want to make the effort to make them run right so they just opt not to run them at all. Sometimes even a properly aligned SCA can cause such problems on a poor receiver. That's another excuse to avoid them.
On AM Stereo issues, KKDS and KSL run Kahn "Powerside" which is mutually exclusive with C-Quam stereo (and both Powerside and C-Quam) will be out with IBOC). Very low power at night in the former case and improved skywave reception on the latter prompt that. Neither station ever had a true C-Quam system. KKDS had a Harris System and KSL a Kahn stereo system. (KSL was the 12th station in the U.S. to adopt AM stereo.) When FCC mandated only C-Quam for stereo, KSL (which by then had gone News/Talk) dropped stereo (although it still has a stereo STL) and went to Powerside. KKDS had their Harris system converted to simulate C-Quam, but later put on Powerside to help coverage. Not sure about the STL situation there since they moved the xmtr. AM stereo does not change the signal strength or take any carrier power, but it does change how far you can asymetically modulate and still stay within the FCC bandwidth mask (at least with C-Quam). You can get that 125% positive legally if you don't run it, but it's marginal with some types of programming if you do, and you know "loud at all costs" is what it's all about, right? CC and others would rather have all the legal loud they can get, regardless of whether or not it sounds good. There is also the fact that most people consider that "stereo" means High Fidelity rather than 2 channel sound. FM stations have sometimes run in mono for months with only a pilot on and with virtually no one noticing. AM stereo died because, other than in a few models of Sony and Sansui sets, all the receiver people did was give us narrow band binaural sound that just hurt in two places at once. The extra $1.75 it would have cost to widen the IF's and put in a switch to narrow them for nightime listening (a la the GE Super Radio III) was just too much to ask. AM stereo sounds fine on a good receiver, but no matter. Sadly, no one except a few engineers and radio geeks even care. People tune to a station for it's programming. As long as the signal isn't gross people will listen if it's broadcasting what they want to hear. AM Stereo is a dead horse as far as seeing any ROI for a station. Has KEVA ever sold a schedule simply because it is stereo? (AM IBOC will be worse, especially because of what it does to the analog quality, but that's another story.)
Cheers!

[David]

Michael n WYO wrote:

If you're in Ogden, have you tried listening to 106.1? KEVA's signal is rebroadcast on 106.1 as well and I know I've received it in different places in Ogden.

No sign of KEVA on 106.1 at my location, and I've tried two of my best receivers with external antennas. What I'm hearing on 106.1 is just "splatter" from "Channel 105.7." I'll have to check 106.1 on the radio in my Impala next time I'm out and about. It's surprising how well my car radio receives signals on both bands. It can pick up signals that none of my home receivers can.

On the flip side of the broadcast band, KEVA 1240 is coming in pretty good in Ogden this morning. Gotta love that AM groundwave coverage!